Blaming porn, evading personal responsibility?

[flexibeast]

[ Cross-posted to the pleasureact community and the Pleasure Activism Australia email list ]

We've recently had a thread on the Pleasure Activism Australia email list about the effects of porn; and further to this, i wanted to raise something that concerns me about part of the debate: the implied notion that people in general, and men in particular, are not in control of their behaviour, and that porn can 'make' them behave in a certain way.

i've watched a lot of porn, and a lot of anal porn. i really like anal sex. And yet, as any of my partners will tell you, i have never pressured them into having anal sex - because i think that would be completely inappropriate behaviour. Sure, i make my desires known, but i would never hassle someone into doing something they were uncomfortable about doing. And i am sure that i'm not the only person who watches porn who takes this approach.

Now, if i can take this approach, why can't other people? i worry that the "porn causes A, B and/or C to happen" approach takes a simplistic, 'hydraulic' view of sexuality, where men's responses are nothing more than "monkey see, monkey do", and conscious decisions are not involved. In other words, that we say "Well, porn has this effect on men; they can't help it, their buttons are being pressed, what else are they supposed to do?" It's oddly reminiscent of rapists claims that they were 'provoked' by, for example, what their victim was wearing.

At this point, it may be said that what is being argued is not such a 'hydraulic' approach, but that porn merely influences people's behaviour. Well, sure. But surely porn is not the only influence on people; we're not living in a cultural vacuum. There are a whole lot of other influences that we encounter in the course of our daily lives: the people we live and work and/or study with, the mass media, religious institutions. All these things influence what we consider to be 'appropriate' behaviour towards other people. So why should porn be singled out as The Main Cause of inappropriate behaviour in the interpersonal realm?

Finally, i am also concerned that the "blame porn" approach gives those who engage in unacceptable behaviour an 'excuse': instead of "The Devil made me do it"¹ - which legitimises, for example, Christian notions of 'good' and 'evil' - we have "porn made me do it", which serves to legitimise 'hydraulic' notions of the effects of porn, whilst also reducing the culpability of the person engaging in the unacceptable behaviour: they "couldn't help it".

What do people think?

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1. Here's a recent example: "Satanic music influenced church arson, court told"
 

Comments

[candika.livejournal.com]

I agree. It's just an excuse. It's not that they can't control their behaviour, it's that they choose not to and then shift the blame and responsibility onto someone or something else. You hear this nonsense all the time. 'You saw what she was wearing: I couldn't help myself...', 'It was the alcohol talking...', 'It was the evil porn that made me do it...' blah, blah, blah and, frankly, more blah!

Decent people, who don't wish to dominate and abuse others control their impulses and desires all the time and to say otherwise is just an evasion of responsibility.

[timeisahelix.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's my two cents:

No, pornography doesn't "make" anyone do anything, except perhaps get aroused, and even that is debatable.

That said, there *is* a definite correlation between men using mainstream pornography and men treating women improperly. I'm not particularly anti-porn, but I do think that much of our pornography deserves some scrutiny.

The bulk of mainstream porn makes me *very* uncomfortable. The classic response to that is, "Well, then don't look at it," and I don't, save for self-education reasons (like for debates such as this.) Unfortunately, the discomfort remains, because I realize that for a large proportion of men, porn is their first real exposure to sex. It helps to shape their opinions about it.

People learn how to behave by imitating behavior. In our culture, sex is so hidden away from children that to explore their sexuality, porn offers one of very few options. And it's sexy to an adolescent because *everything* is sexy to an adolescent. Hell, I'd have humped a tree at that age but for the splinters.

The problem with mainstream porn is that the image of sex that it offers is a very unhealthy one. It's woman-as-receptacle. She becomes three holes, two hands, maybe some bobbing tits, and no desires of her own. At least no real desires. Only, "Oh baby, cum on my face." She's been reduced to a sex toy. She's often infantalized, degraded, or worse yet, roughed up. Increasingly, one sees entirely mainstream porn that's *violent*. Not violent in the BDSM sense, but in the "genuinely harming her and look she's in pain, but she's still going to take it cuz she's my bitch" way. It's thisclose to rape. And it's certainly the same ideas about sex that lead to rape. Namely, that women are objects and not people, and their bodies are not their own property. You see all kinds of shit in porn that is just NOT OKAY. Issues of respect and consent and safety are absent.

It's an image of sex that is, well, frightening. And it bothers me that young men, and (perhaps what's more dangerous) young women, are using it to learn what the expectations are. There's really no denying that it happens. Stuff like anal bleaching was unheard of until porn stars started doing it.

I don't know. While I do think that porn can help to cause some unhealthy attitudes, I view it more as a symptom of a greater problem. Like why do we as a culture, find the objectification and abuse of women to be an inherent part of sex? Why aren't there more positive images of sexuality in mainstream culture? Why are we taught that respectful, pleasurable-for-both-parties sex involving all-around informed consent is so sanitized that it's no longer sexy? Why do we refuse to talk to our children about the "sexy" part of sex (as opposed to the anatomy/hygiene/disease bits we teach in schools) to the point that porn is their only source of education? Something tells me that these attitudes existed in our culture long before our porn began reflecting it, y'know?

[squire-liz.livejournal.com]

*nods* Porn doesn't turn people into rapists, video games don't turn people into serial killers and going to church doesn't turn someone into a nice person. What we observe in our world certainly effects our impulses, but it is up to us to exert judgment. There is a difference between fantasy and reality and we should be learning the difference early in life. Are we mindless lemmings or are we human beings? Perhaps people are so unsure of their own self control that they telegraph that weakness to everyone else. You know something? I like reading porn and erotica about rape and other control fantasies. Does that mean I think its ok in real life? no. (I'm talking real rape not bondage or rape scenes). I love watching movies where someone goes in and kicks ass and takes names regardless of the consequences. Does that mean I think its a good idea in real life? Again, no.
What makes us human, and gives us an advantage over your average everyday primate is not the absence of impulses, but the ability to see beyond them and evaluate their consequences.

[squire-liz.livejournal.com]

I'd say that because we have made such and issue out of sex, and made it into such a taboo that it is hard to get more positive roles out there. We've turned it into such a nasty dirty thing, and the porn that is out there reflects that. I agree that this is a bad thing. One would hope that by the time someone comes across porn, and yes I realize that this occasionally starts with 5 year old Billy looking under mommie and daddies bed, Mom and dad, or whatever flavor of adult protector the child has, have discussed the difference between reality and stories and that you have respect for and don't hurt your fellow human being.

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

That said, there *is* a definite correlation between men using mainstream pornography and men treating women improperly.

Well, my understanding is that there is not, in fact, a general consensus on this point. See, for example, "The Harm of Porn (http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/harm.htm)".

But even if there was a consensus on such a correlation, correlation is not the same as causation . . . .

I'm not particularly anti-porn, but I do think that much of our pornography deserves some scrutiny.

Absolutely! My concern is that many feminists seem to put porn into a "beyond rehabilitation" category in a way that they don't for other forms of media. So-called "women's magazines" often promote attitudes and behaviours that i consider to be unhealthy for women, in both a physical and a psychological sense; and yet i'm yet to hear the feminists who want to ban porn calling for a ban on women's magazines also! Why? i think Leonore Tiefer, in her book Sex is not a natural act, made an interesting in this regard:

If the target of the feminist campaign is violence against women, the question must be asked whether pornography is really the best place to try to make some headway against violence. Mainstream movies and TV are notorious for their violent imagery, and the claim that sexuality is the prime locus for violence against women ignores these genres entirely.As feminists we might ask why sexuality and pornography need to be included at all. If what we are interested in eliminating is the subordination of women, why does it have to be sexually explicit material that we target? Servility, injury, enjoying pain - why do they get banned only if they involve sex? The honest political answer is that no one is about to ban violent images in this country - they are too mainstream. Only sexual images are sufficiently offensive to large diverse groups, and targeting seemingly violent sexual images would be the only way for feminists to get widespread public support. But the consequence of picking on sexual images is that sexuality itself becomes the target. This result is a major setback for those groups within the women's movement whose goal is to de-repress women's sexuality.

The bulk of mainstream porn makes me *very* uncomfortable.

*nod* Fair enough.

Unfortunately, the discomfort remains, because I realize that for a large proportion of men, porn is their first real exposure to sex. It helps to shape their opinions about it.

*nod* i agree; but so do many other things as well, and i'm concerned about how often porn seems to be singled out as the Prime Villain of the piece, to (i feel) the detriment of talking the problems created by broader societal attitudes.

Increasingly, one sees entirely mainstream porn that's *violent*.

*sad nod* My feeling is that this is yet another symptom of the backlash against feminism, which is not over yet (despite certain ludicrously over-optimistic claims about the existence of a "Third Wave" women's movement).

Stuff like anal bleaching was unheard of until porn stars started doing it.

True. On the other hand, one must ask, why did porn stars themselves start doing it? Perhaps because of society's general expectations that bodies must be 'perfect' and 'unblemished' - expectations which the non-porn mainstream mass media plays a substantial role in creating and sustaining?

Something tells me that these attitudes existed in our culture long before our porn began reflecting it, y'know?

*nod* Definitely. That's why i feel that the plethora of problems with porn are much more a symptom than they are a cause.

[timeisahelix.livejournal.com]

(This will be long, so bear with me.)

I agree with you on pretty mush everything.

Correlation isn't causation. It isn't as simple as "little Johnny finds daddy's stroke mags, becomes rapist." I'm personally of the opinion that, yes, there is a correlation between porn and real-life abuse, but that it's part-cause, part-effect, and lot more complicated that some feminists give it credit for.

Porn both reflects and perpetuates sexist notions. Porn is the easiest target for many, because it's so overt, and because it's already seen as dirty, but unfortunately, the problems with porn are problens with culture, and culture is hard to change. The damaging attitudes seen in porn are also seen in advetizing (Chicken Fries, anyone?), in TV, in movies, in music lyrics. They are present at the cultic roots of our society. Women are objects to be desired; men are unable to control themselvese. Women selflessly give; men conquer. Women are romance-driven; men are horny. Women who express their sexuality are "fallen"; men who do the same are studs. Whores are demonized; pimps are glorified.

And, the sexist stereotype of sexist stereotypes: sex is for men. In sex ed., I learned all about male arousal. I learned about his penis, that his glans was oh-so-sensitive, about his erections and orgasms. Everything but his prostate, cuz y'know, that would be gay. *eyeroll* Never ONCE was my clitoris mentioned, let alone my G-spot. My immense capacity for genital pleasure is our society's dirty little secret. Even doctors view women's sexuality as less important. Male Erectile Dysfunction is a legitimate health concern, while female inorgasmia...who cares? It's really little wonder that in our porn, true, honest-to-God female pleasure is invisible.

Until we stop believing all these things, our porn won't change. Or if you want to get into the racism bit: until we stop believing that Asian women are always good little submissive toys, or that Latina women are fiesty and insatiable, or that Black women are always up for whatever raunchy, nasty activities you can think of, our porn won't stop portraying them thus.

Of course, all this ideology gets me into some sticky situations. Cuz I love's me some porn. Not the mainstream stuff that is at worst, triggering, and at best...well, it strikes me as kinda skeezy, but a lot of the more alternative stuff out there I can really dig. I mean, I can defend the pro-woman, body-positive stuff like On Our Backs easily, but what of, say, Suicide Girls? I mean, it's got all the same problems: the racism, the insane beauty-standard conformity, the "slutty bad girl" imagery, etc., but, what can I say? I've got a thing for body mods. My girlfriend and I were having this conversation awhile ago, and she said, "You know, just because we think it's hot doesn't mean it isn't damaging."

And BDSM/kink porn only confuses the issue. I mean, I think non-consent/domination/humiliation stuff is fine for me, but I don't really want a thirteen-year-old stumbling across it. I can dream of a world where such things aren't viewed as perverse, only as one of the myriad acceptable forms in which sexuality manifests, but it's still pretty hard to label sexual fantasy as such if you've never experienced a sexual reality to compare it to, you know?

[timeisahelix.livejournal.com]

I think the biggest issue here is the lies we tell kids about sex. Why can't we just admit it? Sexy is..sexy. It's fun. It can be loving, or spiritual, or raunchy, or even violent (though I have some serious problems labeling what I do with my partners as such, but I assume you know what I mean), and its ALL OKAY. Assuming it takes place within an ethical framework ("consenting adults," SSC, RACK, or anything else that essentually boils down to safety, respect, honesty, and above all informed consent), there's nothing to be ashamed of. Am I the only one who thinks that when we expect people to be guilty about all sex, then the guilt someone feels over something legitimately wrong is more easily ignored?

Why, when our daughters discover their genitals, do we simply chide them and say, "stop that?" Why can't we tell them, "I know it feels good when you touch yourself that way, and there's no reason you should stop, but it's the type of thing that you do in your bedroom or bathroom and not at Sally's bat mitzvah. If you want, when we get home, I'll give you some privacy so you can learn more about your body." We all know that masterbation is fun, so why are we so uncomfortable when our children think it's fun?

Why do we say, "You need to respect your elders. Now don't be rude, and give your uncle a kiss." Why can't we tell our kids, "Your body belongs to you, and no one has the right to touch you or expect you to touch them in a way that makes you uncomfortable. Is there another way you can think of to show your uncle that you care about him?"

If we are taught, from the very beginning, the truth about our bodies and all the neat things they do, and our inherent right to own them, then the damage of porn won't be so great.

I don't really get the censorship argument anyway. I don't find the classic Dworkin/McKinnon "speech you can't answer to isn't protected speech" contention to be intellectually defensible. I'd throw a fit if someone tried to use that to force me to remove, say, a Pride flag. And you can't censor pornography anyway. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, even illegal smut is easily available. Give me 30 seconds and I can (won't, but can) find a mountain of child pornography. It hasn't gone away because we told it to. Now, I'm not saying kiddie porn should be legal. People who sexually abuse children make have an amazing ability to make me rethink my anti-death penalty stance, but my point is that criminalizing porn won't stop the damage it can cause. Hell, anyone with a two-year-old knows that the second someone is forbidden from doing something, the urge to do it grows stronger.

No, we have to reshape our society and it's attitudes about sex, women, race, and violence, before anything will change.

[timeisahelix.livejournal.com]

And the mechanical errors abound! Sorry. I hope that was intelligible.

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

It was indeed! Thank you for such a detailed and considered response. :-) And may i echo you when i say "i pretty much agree with what you said". :-)

(Sorry for the delay in replying - my life has been quite hectic of late!)

[timeisahelix.livejournal.com]

Hey, no problem! =)

And thanks for the article!