Beliefs

[flexibeast]

In the same country in which publishers are afraid of promoting books on religion-free parenting for fear of offending religious sensibilities, we have anti-choicers trying to kill people in an attempt to 'save' foetuses - the sort of terrorism the mass media doesn't talk about because it doesn't involve Muslims or people of Middle Eastern background. Yet i would suggest that it's most likely that the perpetrators were members of the religious (probably so-called 'Christian') right.

This is why so many people, including myself, feel that we need to not only talk about the right to freedom of religion¹ but the right to freedom from religion.

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1. i would actually prefer to use the term 'spirituality' here. i would call myself a 'spiritual' person, but not a 'religious' person, because i tend to regard 'religion' as involving dogma to a much greater extent than 'spirituality'.
 

Comments

[porcineflight.livejournal.com]

Fundamentalism is great! (for the fundamentalists)... it provides certaintly in a complex world, the euphophoria of self-righteousness... membership of anelite group... and the security of being correct all the time, and if people disagree withyou, they are suffering from false idols/false consciousness/a one-way ticket to firey damnation.

Everyone should try it :P

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

"Fundamentalism: for when even thinking like a 5-year-old is too much effort." ;-)

[penguinpusher.livejournal.com]

It's curious that many- particularly in the US- don't consider freedom from religion as a basic human right. This is George Bush senior on atheism:

The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I. Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1987. Sherman is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of the press corps. The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal disaster relief for Illinois. The discussion turned to the presidential primary:

RS:
"What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"
GB:
"I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me."
RS:
"Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"
GB:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
RS:
"Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?"
GB:
"Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists."

It's built into so many aspects of our civilisation, there really isn't so much separation of church and state as theists- including those less delusional than the Bushs'- generally like to believe. I for one find it offensive that I'm supposed to respect others religious beliefs when my own non-religious beliefs are often not. I was forced to attend scripture classes in a "secular" public high school is just one example.

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

It's built into so many aspects of our civilisation, there really isn't so much separation of church and state as theists- including those less delusional than the Bushs'- generally like to believe.

*firm nod* Agreed. If there was a real separation between church and state, many of our current 'morality' laws would be non-existent.

I for one find it offensive that I'm supposed to respect others religious beliefs when my own non-religious beliefs are often not.

*nod* Yep.

I was forced to attend scripture classes in a "secular" public high school is just one example.

!!!

i mean, i had to attend RI in primary school (where i asked the usual question asked by troublemakers: "But where did God come from? ;-) ), but crikey, i didn't realise that sort of thing happened in secondary schools too . . . . :-((

[penguinpusher.livejournal.com]

It was in NSW, different system to Vic, and it was junior high school only. Afaik they've made it so you don't have to attend scripture if you get a signed statement from your parents saying they don't want you to do it now. Nothing to do with whether YOU want to of course ;)

[sacred-harlot.livejournal.com]

"This is why so many people, including myself, feel that we need to not only talk about the right to freedom of religion1 but the right to freedom from religion."

Couldn't have said it better myself, well done Sweetie!

Much Love,
Sacred Harlot XxX.

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

Heh, thanks beautiful. :-) :-* :-X

[sl-carmichael.livejournal.com]

Actually it's gotten bad enough that somebody who does believe in Christ would like freedom from religion as well. It's not just the atheists. I'm going to agree I would call myself a 'spirtual' person before I'd let them hang the 'Christian' label on me. Hrmmmm.

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

*nod* Fair enough. Indeed, i used the phrase "so-called 'Christians'" because it seems to me that the people in question are willfully ignoring the "care for each other as you care for yourselves" part of the gospels.

And i know from much personal experience what it's like to feel uncomfortable about wearing a label that's technically correct, but which one feels has been dishonoured by the less-than-pleasant behaviour of many other people who also wear that label . . . .

[sl-carmichael.livejournal.com]

I had this discussion with my SO. About how people absolutely believe they are right about their own faith, and everybody else is wrong. It's very disturbing to see the trend toward more and more of that.

Unfortunately, it is so-called Christians, the more vitrolicly vocal ones, who so blatantly ignore the do unto others rule. The rest of us sitting on the sidelines haven't a fricking clue how to shut them up. One could flap their lips until they're blue in the face. And all you get is 'I'm right, you're wrong.' It would be a serious effort in futility. Because all you'll get in return is 'If you don't believe like me, you're from Satan'. Shall we completely disregard the fact that Satan is no more than a medieval conjuration. And I don't except that the real being is anything like the short sighted dark age Christians made him. (I use him as a lack of any better term.)

I still would like to believe the majority of Christians aren't like that, but I fear my hope dwindles each day on that belief. I'm not sure anymore.

It leaves people like me, who do believe in Christ--yet can't stand the ever growing message out there of shoving Christianity down everybody's throat--in a very odd place. The natural desire is to point out one's own beliefs and try to let everyone know that that not everybody is like that. Since my personal belief is more a mixture of several things (I recently learned that it does resemble some of what Wiccans believe), quite a few Christians in general wouldn't accept me. When it comes to the hardliners, I can't say that's a great loss. *L*

The journey in faith, whatever you choose to believe, is a very personal one. People come to God, Allah, whatever you call the entity who you believe is up there. Some never may. Irregardless, it is far too personal to me to agree to forcing it down anyone's throat. And I really fear that getting the hardliners to understand that is a damn near impossible task. And it scares me that they are growing in power.

[sl-carmichael.livejournal.com]

Needed to add: People come to God, Allah, whatever you call the entity who you believe is up there in their own way and time. Some never may.

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

The rest of us sitting on the sidelines haven't a fricking clue how to shut them up. One could flap their lips until they're blue in the face. . . . The journey in faith . . . is far too personal to me to agree to forcing it down anyone's throat. And I really fear that getting the hardliners to understand that is a damn near impossible task. And it scares me that they are growing in power.

Well, personally, i think that the best thing to do is to mobilise society to actively marginalise such people, so as to take away their power and influence; and as for a strategy for doing so, i broadly agree with this article from Tikkun.org (http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php?story=20070219094421586).

Shall we completely disregard the fact that Satan is no more than a medieval conjuration. And I don't except that the real being is anything like the short sighted dark age Christians made him. (I use him as a lack of any better term.)

Heh, well, speaking as a theistic Satanist myself, to a certain extent i would agree that those who disagree with fundamentalist views are 'Satanist', in that i view Baphomet/Lucifer/Satan/etc. as a force for independent thought and analysis of the world/universe/multiverse. And it's indeed threatening to fundamentalists to have people such as ourselves make our own interpretations of scripture and spirituality . . . . good. :-)

[sl-carmichael.livejournal.com]

You probably shouldn’t get me started on Satan. And yes, I know Satanists are NOT as portrayed by Christians. I spent a bit of time studying several schools of thought regarding Satanism. We both see the meaning of the word Satan in a far different manner than Christians do, but that particular word is used as the end all, be all of evil to a Christian. For my part, I intensely dislike the disgusting portrayal of Lucifer, and many Christians using him as a scapegoat for their own sins, though no I don't worship Satan. I'm not sure what brand of Satanist this would make me, though I'm fairly somewhere it would brand me as such. Eh. But it would interesting to know just for my own curiosity, and the value of being able to point out what I actually am to any given fundamentalist. Curse my sadistic sense of humor.

I will agree that people from the fundamentalist viewpoint do feel threatened when someone wants to make their own interpretation. Not sure I've ever understood that.

I read the article and have to agree with it on many points. It’s the Republicans and the conservatives who are better organized now. They scare me, and God help me, I live in a house with 2 rabid Bush supporters. Argggh.

The part about having to do so much work in FL to up the minimum wage surprised me. It went to 6.95 here in MI, and there wasn't much of a fuss at all about it (unless I missed something, which is entirely possible).

Beliefs

[theuppitywoman.livejournal.com]

I found an interesting quote whilst looking for something else today, which just about sums up how I view religion in general;

"History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it."
Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love (1972)
US science fiction author (1907 - 1988)