"Feminist"

[flexibeast]

Someone over on debunkingmale has brought up the old "Men should not call themselves feminist, only pro-feminist" thing. i've written about this topic many times all over the Web, but not, apparently, in the form of a post to my own journal. So here is that post, which i'll update with further points as they come to mind.

The issues i have with the "Men shouldn't call themselves feminists" notion include:

• All too often it's based on dichotomous ideas of sex and gender. What about people such as myself, who identify as male and female - can i call myself 'feminist'? i've often found that those pushing the "no 'feminist' men" idea tend to be transphobic, or at the very least have very simplistic ideas about trans people's lives and experiences; so they may dismiss this point as irrelevant, or only relevant in that they feel it serves as yet another example of men trying to colonise womanhood. Which brings me to an important point:


• If only women can call themselves feminist, we have to ask what constitutes 'womanhood'. Having a womb? But then those who have had a hysterectomy don't qualify. Having breasts? But some women have smaller breasts than some men. Having a cunt? Personally, i balk at reducing a woman to her genitalia. Having exactly two X chromosomes? But then intersex people who have been raised female don't qualify. What about having been raised as a female, or having lived as a female? In the case of the former, does that mean that an FTM transsexual can call himself a 'feminist'? In the case of the latter, exactly what experiences are required over what period before a person can qualify as a 'woman'? Does one have to experience oppression primarily through one's gender before qualifying? And so on.


• The argument that someone made in the debunking male thread that men's definitions of feminism may not match women's definitions of feminism is specious, since feminism consists of a wide variety of beliefs, a number of which involve claims that other feminist beliefs are patriarchal. For example, some anti-BDSM feminists feel that BDSM is one form of the "eroticisation of women's oppression", whilst pro-BDSM feminists often feel that dictating the form women's sexuality 'should' take is classic patriarchal behaviour.


• i tend to feel that how men identify in this regard is far less important than their concrete actions. Although i'm aware that other women (e.g. porcineflight) have different experiences in this regard, i've all too often witnessed so-called 'pro-feminist' men act in ways i feel are highly disrespectful to women and their feelings and experiences - for example, this incident, Stan Goff's comments about women and sex work (as per this critique) and a Web-based attack on me in which it was implied that naked_wrat must really merely be a sockpuppet of mine, since no real woman would enjoy and defend at least some types of porn. :-P Further, it strikes me as odd (at the very least) that a cis woman could declare herself a 'feminist', argue against abortion even in cases of rape, and still be able to call herself 'feminist', whereas a cis man who publicly argued for pro-choice positions and who, in his own behaviour and in his activism, worked towards ending violence against women, can nevertheless only call himself 'pro-feminist'.

Personally, i'll take the man who identifies as a feminist and walks the talk over the man who identifies as 'pro-feminist' but who behaves as a condescending prick anyday.

Edited to add: This thread covers a number of issues relevant to this topic.
 

Comments

[flexibeast.livejournal.com]

Well, as you know, and as i've written elsewhere (http://hierodule.livejournal.com/65332.html), i strongly agree with you on the issue of MTFs.

There are three main issues i see with your comments overall:

• Many (most?) of the complaints you make about men who identify as 'feminist', i have about men who identify as 'pro-feminist': trying to elicit women's approval, being at pains to point out they're not one of the bad guys (which often comes across as "The gentleman doth protest too much"), imposing their views on woman (as per my post). And further, as you know, i have seen far more men who identify as 'feminist' actually walk the talk and be genuinely respectful to women than men who identify as 'pro-feminist'. So given the differing experiences you and i have had with 'feminist' and 'pro-feminist' men, it seems to me that it's not possible to use these labels as indicators of the likely attitudes and behaviours of the men in question.


• i would suggest that some (perhaps only a few) men actually are more knowledgeable about the issues facing women than many women. Michael Flood (who i believe identifies as 'pro-feminist') is a fine example. It's an absurdity to suggest that a woman who reads, i don't know, Mercy and declares herself a feminist has more of a handle on the complexities of women's experiences than someone like Michael, who has spent years and years researching these matters. And to give a more specific example, Michael has shown himself to be much more willing to listen to the diversity of women's experiences in the sex industry than a number of cis female feminists i've encountered. i think that it's reasonable to think that people of any gender can and should need to actually earn a position of authority within the feminist community.


• Finally, you talk about men consulting with women, but many female feminists fail to apparently consult with women. Sheila Jeffreys is the classic example - her views often seem to fail to take into account the diversity of women's experience, and the fact that she's in such a position of authority as a widely-known academic, means that she ends up occluding or dissing many women's lives, not only to the broader community, but within the feminist community itself. It's easy to dismiss the likes of Stan Goff as being yet another male trying to foist his attitudes on women; but his rhetoric comes precisely from reading the work of people like Jeffreys! And as far as i'm concerned, and at least one cis woman i know who has helped women exit the sex industry, Jeffreys has done at least as much (and possibly more!) damage to women than i ever have when i was a male identifying as 'feminist'. Again, there are all too many cis female feminists who spend more time judging women for their choices rather than trying to understand them.

In summary: neither being a cis female feminist, nor being a 'pro-feminist' male, necessarily guarantees "walk the talk" respect for women.